Movie News Net Roundtable: Can ‘Zack Snyder’s Justice League’ Succeed Where The Theatrical Version Failed?
Justice League was supposed to be an Avengers-level franchise for Warner Bros., but plans for that fell apart when it became the highest-grossing movie to still be considered a flop, with a loss of about $60M estimated from Joss Whedon’s edit of the film. Now, on the cusp of the release of a recut version of the movie from Zack Snyder, can the movie find financial success with an additional $70M invested into it?
EDITOR’S NOTE: We recorded our thoughts in the days prior to the embargoes discussing the film lifting, and as such, our responses reflect our thoughts at the time, independent of the release of the film. (To our pleasant surprise, the movie has been reviewed the best out of Zack Snyder’s DC efforts!) Given the amount of discourse around this particular project, we felt that it was necessary to put our brains together on this and talk about what is shaping up to be a big deal in the streaming world, and we’ve assembled a pretty wide range of opinions and takes on the movie. Keep that in mind, and enjoy the article!
Josh: I will be very surprised if Zack Snyder’s Justice League turns out to be a good film. Despite the incredible amount of hype surrounding the project, it feels like there are too many things going against it for it to be anything other than mediocre and disappointing.
Batman v Superman was convoluted and overstuffed, making for a pretty average film in my opinion. Considering that the Snyder Cut has a runtime of four hours, I can’t even begin to imagine how many superfluous story beats Zack Snyder has crammed into this film. I’m so glad that it’s coming to streaming as well because it’s unreasonable to expect audiences to sit down in one spot for four freaking hours for a single film.
This film will suffer from the same issue as Whedon’s Justice League. This installment has come way too early in these characters’ journeys and seems rushed. If Warner Bros. had taken the Marvel approach to heart and at least given Batman, Flash and Cyborg their own individual stories before they started crossing over, it would have given audiences time to connect with these new portrayals and ensured that they care about them when they reach their lowest points in the film. I don’t really care what happens to half of this team because I’ve barely spent any time with them.
I think there will be some things to like about this film that those who campaigned for the Snyder Cut can focus on to justify their efforts. Unfortunately, others will see a film that has way too many things happening, is overly long and has been rushed into this Snyder-Verse timeline without taking the time to properly develop its heroes. It will be disappointing to all but the most diehard DC fans.
Grant: I get the feeling that the title of the film is pretty indicative of what we’re going to get: Zack Snyder’s Justice League. If you’re a fan of his movies, then this will probably be for you. If not, that could be a source of trouble for casual viewers who aren’t interested in the spectacle to see what the fuss about the development of the movie is all about. I’ve generally enjoyed his DC Films but have somewhat soured on them over time, mostly because I feel like the cold reception to Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and Justice League dissuaded Warner Bros. from actually developing a shared universe in favor of standalones that don’t really lead anywhere, and Henry Cavill was sort of robbed of a promising Superman franchise in the process. We’ve seen with Aquaman that they’re capable of delivering movies that produce results that give Marvel a run for their money, but it feels like the stigma over the historic backlash against their attempt to rush to get to their own Avengers-type movie has had long-term repercussions for the entire DC brand.
I think that one of the biggest issues with committing to this kind of a setting is that there’s a level of long-term planning, but not in the standard sense. Snyder has indicated that he basically had the stories of the three, and later four, planned sequels to Man of Steel figured out before he started work on the first crossover film, but he only committed to five movies in total, and there is physical evidence that he had multiple outlines drawn revealing what his overall arc was. The problem lies with the number of installments in this series compared to what it was trying to do, and the character beats that the cast needed to travel through in the film. To compensate for fewer movies, Snyder instead opted for longer running times for his films. As such, some potentially crucial story beats in Batman v Superman were glossed over in favor of sequel bait (like a nightmare sequence of post-apocalyptic world that has absolutely nothing to do with the main story and was a tease for the planned fourth and fifth movies – which may never be made), while other elements were excised from the theatrical version altogether (such as several scenes building upon Superman’s story).
The result confounded and alienated audiences and critics alike, in spite of there being a solid foundation for future stories. What I’m getting at here is that by only committing to a few movies instead of dividing up the workload more efficiently between other creators, and by using certain story beats adapted from comics as a checklist (with the death and return of Superman feeling particularly rushed and predictable, at least going off of the theatrical iterations of Batman v Superman and Justice League), it feels like Zack Snyder may have kneecapped the potential of his own planned epic before it could even get out the door. It would have benefitted this story to have more breathing room. And the effects of his approach are still present here. Prior to the announcement of Zack Snyder’s Justice League, Snyder claimed that his definitive version clocked in at just over 3.5 hours, whereas the final version will be over 4 hours thanks to the addition of footage from the 5-hour assembly cut and the addition of some new scenes shot last year. Snyder initially wanted to split all that down into more easy-to-digest hour-long installments, but contracts meant that that couldn’t happen without paying everyone more than they needed to. I don’t want to sound negative here, as I am very much looking forward to this iteration of the movie, but I do think that part of the problems of the initial take on the story came home to roost.
As it stands, that’s a big undertaking for viewers who aren’t already committed to this thing. The good news is that the movie is still split up like a miniseries thanks to some title cards, so that might mitigate the problem. And there is certainly hope that it will succeed: based on the trends that I’ve seen in the past few weeks as far as engagement goes, I believe that this iteration of the movie will definitely make a profit, provided that you’re ignoring the $60M+ loss of the theatrical version (as WarnerMedia clearly are). There’s actually a chance that in the long-term, it outright erases the loss of the previous version, provided that many HBO Max subscribers signing up for this stick around. I still get the feeling that interest in this movie will still pale in comparison to something like Godzilla vs Kong (IE: a new movie that people have not seen yet, and one that will play in theaters), but that’s really not too difficult to imagine – this is clearly an effort that’s been driven by the fans, and we’ll just have to see if word-of-mouth from them can attract audiences to this new take. Getting interest from outside the existing fanbase is the biggest challenge that this movie has, and I think reception has to be good for that to work. Many of Snyder’s movies have received mixed or outright negative reviews, so that may be a challenge.
I kind of enjoy the theatrical version as a guilty pleasure of sorts, but nonetheless I believe that this iteration of the movie will be better – even with the apprehension of the executives who saw an early cut of the movie in mind. The 2017 version is deeply-compromised movie that doesn’t play to the strengths of Zack Snyder or Joss Whedon, and neither one of them would have made that movie under normal circumstances. The movie’s long running time likely means that there will be plenty of room for character development and world-building that just wasn’t in the theatrical version, not to mention that the editing won’t feel frenzied and choppy as a result. And, honestly? After looking at the trailers… I feel like I’m actually genuinely hopeful that this story is concluded in some way, shape, or form past the epic-length film, since I didn’t really expect to see this version of Justice League get finished. I couldn’t say that a few years ago, when I was comfortable with the idea of this never seeing the light of day. It feels like it might be worth having this continue as a series of animated stories while they use The Flash and everything after that to justify telling a new story that can hopefully lead to more large-scale crossovers. The Multiverse certainly has room for it.
Overall, I do believe that this endeavor will be successful for HBO Max, although it might not do well enough to get conventional live-action sequels for this. It should be a win for everyone involved except for the Warner Bros. executives who tried to bury this version in the first place. I just hope that the promised cliffhanger doesn’t leave people cold if no sequels ever actually happen.
Chris: I feel like there’s really two questions here: Will it be financially successful? And will it be good?
On the financial side, I think it’s important to separate this from Justice League’s theatrical budget. That ship has sailed and all that matters to HBO Max is that it covers the reported $70 million they spent to complete Zack Snyder’s Justice League. On that level I do think it will be successful. The publicity alone has likely been worth it. Love it or hate it, people are talking about this movie and that curiosity factor is going to bring viewers who aren’t part of Snyder’s fan base or DC fans who are going to watch this to see the difference from the theatrical cut even if they didn’t like Snyder’s previous movies. Plus, it’s blockbuster content for a still young streaming service at a time when most of the world is still staying at home. Yeah, I definitely think it will justify the cost for HBO Max.
Whether or not it will be good is a much more subjective question. All cards on the table, I have mixed feelings on Man of Steel and I hated Batman v Superman. Yes, the Ultimate Cut is better and fixes some issues, but not enough to change how I feel about the movie. I’ll admit I enjoyed the theatrical cut of Justice League. Objectively, it’s not a good movie, and you can literally see the seams where they Frankensteined it together, but I enjoyed it. That’s all a long winded way of saying that, as much as I’m a life long DC fan, I am clearly not the target audience for this movie. But all that said, I hope that it’s good.
Even in the wake of Batman v Superman, nothing in the first Justice League trailers (the one from before the reshoots, and the Snyder footage in the ones after) rang any alarm bells for me. I was cautiously optimistic back then and I remain so after the trailer for the Snyder Cut last month. Whilst the idea of more Knightmare world does nothing for me (I hate the idea of Superman falling after the death of Lois), I’m a DC fan so of course I’m geeking out at cinematic Darkseid.
Objectively, I think it will be a better made movie than the theatrical cut was. Thematically and tonally, it will be a more natural sequel to Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, and there’s no doubt the effects will look better here given Snyder has had more time and money to complete his cut than the studio put into reshooting half of the movie back in 2017. The longer run time will allow for more world building and character depth, something that was missing from the theatrical cut due to a studio mandated cutting of any sequel or solo set up and a run time of just two hours. The longer run time is also my biggest fear. I do worry that Snyder may be over-indulging himself here and, even for his fans, this could be a case of too much of a good thing. I said earlier that the Ultimate Cut of Batman v Superman is better, and it is, but I still find it drags in parts. I don’t think Warner Bros. was necessarily wrong that it needed trimming down, just that whoever did the final edit trimmed the wrong parts. At four hours there’s a lot of room for bloat in here.
Snyder’s darker tone could also be an issue. Like I said, I’m not the target audience here, I’m sure his fans will absolutely love this and, at the end of the day, that’s who this movie is for. But we have to remember the general audience was lukewarm to Man of Steel and turned off by Batman v Superman, and that the heroes there, particularly Superman, didn’t connect with audiences in the way they needed to. That’s a big reason why the studio forced changes and how we ended up here. That this film is now being completed doesn’t change that. And audiences turned off by Batman v Superman may be similarly turned off here if the tone is grim and if the movie feels bloated or drags in any way. Hopefully this fear is unfounded. In the wake of Batman v Superman, writer Chris Terrio did say that Justice League would be a lighter film, though it clearly wasn’t as light as the studio wanted.
Honestly, based on everything that we know, my gut tells me that my preferred version of this movie may be the one that we never see. The “compromised” Snyder Cut that’s more fleshed out than the theatrical version, but with a lighter tone than Zack Snyder’s Justice League. But I live in hope and I’m extremely curious to see how this all turns out.
Fran: If anything, Zack Snyder’s Justice League will be a cohesive conclusion to the trilogy he started in 2013. Even though I loved Man of Steel at first, I personally haven’t been the biggest fan of Snyder’s vision for the DC characters over the years. He seems to be more interested in the concept of superheroes as modern mythological figures, which is an incredibly attractive angle… if you don’t neglect their human side. In the two previous films, both Clark and Bruce went through interesting trials and tribulations, but we barely got to see the persons underneath the messianic and the vigilante icons. Yes, both spent a fair amount of screen time outside their suits, but they mostly went through cold motions that only led to developments of their “larger than life” status.
Man of Steel almost got it right. I was really into its first beats with Clark in Smallville (nonsensical tornado scene aside) and the “first flight” scene, but it quickly turns into an adaptation of Dragon Ball Z‘s Saiyan Saga. The stakes are kicked up a notch, and the human side of the story falls to the side. I still believe it’s an interesting look at an unexperienced Superman (yes, I buy the neck-breaking scene). The charm and emotional connection simply weren’t there though. This relentless bleakness grows exponentially in Batman v Superman, a movie with a really disjointed theatrical release that later got improved with the Ultimate Edition; I feel like the latter is much closer to the movie Snyder wanted to put out, but it still feels wonky despite the more robust pacing and internal logic. I don’t buy Jesse Eisenberg’s Lex Luthor, who almost feels like a character from the 90s Batman iterations rather than the brooding Snyder-Verse, and his meddling only blurs a Bruce versus Clark conflict that has lots of potential at first. Furthermore, Doomsday was shoehorned because Superman needed to be killed off for plot reasons at a point when we had barely got to meet the guy. Among all the chaotic worldbuilding and rushed character motivations, there are some seriously solid story beats in there, and the movie’s gorgeous to look at if you are a fan of Snyder’s unique visual style, but Batman v Superman once again missed the mark in most people’s books. Just ask around.
To say Justice League has had a troubled journey is an understatement, and the fact WB threw Snyder under the bus following a terrible family tragedy is sickening to say the least. Whedon’s work on the movie felt dishonest even before the recent allegations against him surfaced; I got to see the 2017 release in an advance screening, and my initial reaction was “it could have been worse.” And yes, it could have been much worse, but going from Snyder’s (flawed) “auteur vision” to the “Happy Meal” of modern superhero movies was quite the scam. General audiences only remember being disappointed by that movie (and probably Batman v Superman too); not everyone spends time online following the latest movie news and ramblings of crazed fans, so Zack Snyder’s Justice League probably won’t make a huge splash outside the already existing fandom and curious cinephiles, many of whom have had their pitchforks and torches ready for months now. That being said, I think it will succeed where the theatrical version failed, since it’s essentially a new, much larger movie powered by Snyder’s passion and his recent “downtime.” Just the fact he finally got to make and release the third chapter that he wanted to craft four years ago is a massive victory. And I think he deserves that more than anyone.
Miguel: This is one of the big questions going into the movie, and its answer will depend solely on the person watching it. That is mainly because it depends on how each individual reacted to the theatrical version, not just the new one, so let’s go back three years in time. I was so excited for Justice League when it came out. I grew up on the animated series from the early 2000s and, even though it’s a cliché, I truly never thought we’d get a live-action version of that. But it’s not because I didn’t think Hollywood would make one or because it couldn’t happen because of the effects or the storytelling or whatever. It was something that never crossed my mind, even when Disney started releasing Avengers movies.
It’s funny how these things work, because even though I never thought I wanted one, once it was announced, I became obsessed with the idea. The sky was the limit now. I was massively disappointed when Zack Snyder left the film, not because he is a God in my eyes or anything like that, but because I was already so invested in his vision. I liked the dark tones of his movies, they felt fresh and mature to me. That doesn’t mean that it is the only way to go, but I liked that they felt like his vision. I loved some parts of Batman V Superman and was massively disappointed in others, but I was intrigued to say the least to see where he wanted to take us.
2017 was a rollercoaster in many ways, and to see the development of Justice League was very hard. It was like watching a train deviate from its railways and crash, all of it in slow-motion. They first removed the main architect behind the movie and the Universe they had created, then they replaced him with another writer and director in Joss Whedon, which was something that always smelled like a corporate decision rather than a creative one. And we recently found out that was true – WB execs saw the success of the first two Avengers movies and they said “We want that guy.” After that, we find out that they are going to be reshooting the majority of the movie, they can’t have Henry Cavill without a mustache onset (which, to be honest, is a headline that always felt like a bad joke to me), and then they are forced to meet the November 17 release date. There was really no way you could make a watchable movie.
And to me, they did. I’m not gonna say I loved it, but I watched it as a 6-year-old who just got a present he never dreamed he’d get. Having Bruce Wayne interact with The Flash was just something else for me, even though part of my brain was saying “this is some of the worst editing I’ve ever seen on a major motion picture.” I like to refer to Justice League as a soul-less movie. It is a movie made by studio execs rather than a creative architect or a group of creative minds. It is completely artificial and even though I had fun with it, I didn’t have it because I was loving the characters the movie presented, but rather because I loved the characters that were in my head before I walked in.
All of this was to justify that I completely believe Zack Snyder’s Justice League will succeed where the theatrical cut failed, because my main problem with “Josstice League” is that it felt like it had no soul. It had no overall vision. All movies are a product, made to be sold to the public. But there are movies like The Godfather or The Lord of the Rings that, even though their ultimate purpose is to be sold to an audience, are made by their creators without that goal in mind. Instead, they feel magical because there is a creative process behind them. 2017’s Justice League is the exact opposite of that, and I say that as someone who was so excited every time Batman shot a Parademon.
I fully believe I’m going to love Zack Snyder’s Justice League, and I’m ready for it. That doesn’t mean, however, that I won’t point out several things I don’t like about it, the same way I can proudly say I had a lot of fun with the theatrical version even though I acknowledge its many flaws. Movies are meant to be fun, and when we stop having fun with them and they instead turn into an online war between Zack Snyder Fans and non-Zack Snyder Fans, I have to wonder: what have we become? Do people really go into a movie hoping it sucks? Because if they do, why waste the time? I will wake up on March 18 with a smile on my face ready to be blown away.
Those are our thoughts on the movie prior to its release. How do you think the movie will do on HBO Max, starting this Thursday? Do you think it be better this time around? Let us know in the comments below!
Grant Davis is a freelance writer who has covered entertainment news for more than seven years. His articles have frequently appeared in Star Wars News Net as well as as other entertainment-related websites. As someone who grew up on Star Wars and comic book movies, he’s completely thrilled with the current era of genre entertainment.
